Jess Berger - Building a Pet Brand for the Silent Majority

welcome to shelf help today we're speaking with Jess Burger founder and CEO of bundle and Joy Gut health brand for pups and their people I think Jess might be considered pet industry loyalty by some she's spent more than 15 years in the space in leadership roles at big name brands like Pet Smart Merrick Pet Care Nestle's pet division so you're looking for to hear from an expert in the pet space definitely come to the right place so I'm really excited to get into it Jess just first off for the listeners that that maybe are not that familiar with bundle and joy give us just kind of quick lay of the land in terms of just origin story and kind of why behind the brand Core products in the lineup and then maybe just throw out a few places that people can get their hands on them and then we'll go from there absolutely so I've been really lucky to spend the last 18 years of my career in the pet industry we all love our pets sometimes more than people and it's a really fun category because we will spend on our pets sometimes before ourselves and I think our pets have become just even more important to us post pandemic as we delay having children longer just pets pets around the world is what we think but bundle and joy as a company and products really focused on helping you unleash a happier gut for your pup you know gut and gut nutrition is super important for us as humans but it's also extremely important for our pets it can drive a lot of things longevity overall health and community quality of life and really the length of life and so you know myself personally had gotten up my first grade Dane um Winston and definitely just noticed that he was having a lot of skin and gut issues I say poor back end performance is kind of how I refer to it and when you have 140 pound dog that's not really an option so I just started to do a lot of testing kind of what I would say um elimination diets testing different things and I continue to find that when I removed poultry chicken ingredients and really removed grains some of the things that seemed to be causing issues and then adding probiotics it was like a different dog so the challenge though is I couldn't find anything without chicken it was extremely difficult today even if you go to pick up a bag of food on the shelf and it says it's a fish you know food or something uh nine times out of 10 it's got hidden chicken and beef and other ingredients in that ingredient deck so it really stemmed from a personal need for me and also at the same time I felt like the pet industry was what I called the four BS which is blue brown basic and boring and I thought why couldn't I create a pet brand and a company um that was just a little more focused on the joy that comes from our pets and also to like celebrate the pet person who's you know doing a lot of work to make things happen like it's yeah ultimately we're the ones that are responsible for caring for them I've met so many people who literally have been in tears you know of their frustration and you know unfortunately traditional medicine or vet care um doesn't always address the nutrition piece of it and that can be um really nine times out of 10 the thing that can change a lot of symptoms and it's I don't know it's kind of my mission to get out there and share that a little bit more just call it big big pet there's kind of like that I think there's an in kind of might call it an in between phase where you built private label brands from scratch on behalf of some of the larger retailers it feels like it's definitely kind of a good transition to building your own brand from scratch assuming I got that right I'm just kind of curious like what the what did you learn with this that time of building these private label brands that you didn't really felt like you Learned during your time at you know some of the bigger industry players and you know what might you have maybe had to learn the hard way if you didn't spend time on this private label stuff first yeah I think for so many of us who have worked or are working in the corporate world right we always kind of dream of you know what it's like across the pond and you know if I didn't work for a large corporation things would be so much better and the reality is I think that my corporate career and experience gave me my education when I give mentorship guidance to kind of new um people starting their career I'm like hey go work for a corporation get out there and get as much experience as you can on someone else's dime you're gonna have a check you're gonna get paid every two weeks you know it's a great way to start and you know that's what I really did was say OK how can I learn as much as possible under somebody else's watch and security and that's what I did in the corporate side and then I just hit a point candidly where I was pretty burnt out in 2018 I think it happens to a lot of us I had been sort of chasing you know the corporate life traveling a lot and felt some misalignment sort of a values and uh came to a point where I wasn't exactly sure what I was gonna do but made a decision with my husband that I was gonna take a break it was kind of the plan and uh left the organization and yeah I think when you sometimes have space all of a sudden ideas and things come to you my husband and I always talk about like I'll go on a hike or a walk and all of a sudden my brain starts reminding me of all these things um one of them was just hey like what if I could try to have my own brand but in a less risky way and that's sort of what LED me down the path and the beauty of that was like for the first time there was not a playbook I had to go do something I'd never done before like I had seen it be done on the other side but something as simple as like OK how do I secure packaging who do I call where do how do I do this what are all the elements like I literally started from scratch and I had to learn everything formulation packaging state regulations and pet it's insane like pet is actually governed by several different agencies and I tell people that it's actually more stringent than human food so so I think that you know I usually recommend that like a corporate career gives you so much education finding that opportunity to go take a risk and sort of learn on your own in a way that is also you know manageable and sustainable you don't you know I meet a lot of people they're like oh I'm gonna start a business and I'm just gonna okay wait wait like hold on you know what's the path what's the bridge yeah um and yeah so I kind of strategically set up that bridge not realizing it and that's what ultimately got me to the place of having all the learnings kind of the full wheel that I needed to go and and try to do it myself totally yeah let's rewind back to some of those really early days a bundle enjoy and kind of those formulation and R&D stage without you know giving it away any trade secrets you don't want to share but like what were some of the key variables you're playing around with or key tweets you made between let's just say like the first version and the the final version you knew this is right in terms of those first skews you brought to market and what were kind of some of the must haves and and non starters yeah so I you know we actually launched with about 15 rescues day one which I don't recommend no although we always look back and we're like okay what are the things I would have done or not done you know I think at the time I really felt that I needed to create a solution all around this bundling concept obviously we're bundle and joy and I felt like I needed to be able to provide their food their treats their supplements kind of all at once you know I would say looking back I probably should have focused on you know maybe two at two core you know categories cause it was a lot of R&D it took it took a long time to to finalize I also had you know expectations of what I was looking for and it was a little different than what was in the marketplace and so you know that did come with some challenges our human grade stews for example which we sell today they're a complete and balanced meal they're shelf stable which is great and a recyclable tetra pack you know those took us almost two years because I refused to sort of compromise on the ingredients I wanted them to be human grade and responsibly sourced and single protein and so you know I I think you have to sort of focus on one or two products I think is kind of better advice than what I did and then also just sort of figure out what your non negotiables are and then figure out kind of where you can be flexible and I think that's how you have to kind of come at it at the beginning cause if you're so focused on this is the way it's gonna be like you're gonna be really challenged because it's sometimes it's not actually viable or so but yeah R&D was definitely a process for me I found it to be one of the easier pieces for me at the time just because of all the experience that I had built the bigger thing was how do I now go tell people about it and go market it what is kind of consumer testing look like with with pets and and dogs yeah I mean it's interesting uh Winston was definitely our number one taste tester of course of all things um yeah I mean it's definitely harder I mean there is a lot of testing and things that can be done we're you know actively investing in like clinical research and testing around gut health where you actually there is are ways to kind of check performance and improvement and things like that but yeah a lot of things for pet food come down to palatability right will will your dog eat it do they enjoy it that's kind of the number one thing right if your pet won't eat it then it doesn't really matter what the value or benefits are totally so palatability is always first and foremost that thing that we're focused on but I also like to say that your your dog can actually give you more feedback than anybody they will tell you if something's wrong so I usually talk to people and say hey is your pet you know licking their paws scratching loose stools like are do you have these symptoms like and they're like yeah that that all the time and I'm like okay your pet's trying to tell you something their body is something is off right and so I usually recommend that you know people sort of trust their pet before anybody else totally because there are a lot of people out there that will tell you what to do and don't do and you got celebrities now you got vets you got so many different people that will tell you what to do but honestly your pet is gonna tell you whether it's working for them or not and the gut uh pets microbiome actually can change it as quick as 36 hours they are actually way more nimble than us in that regard and so you typically should be able to see results within a couple of days and co packer partners what what does that look like in in your space and what you did did you like engage co packers right from the start when you were kind of doing formulation and R&D or did you try to make did you you know do like you know your own bench top type stuff and what did that process look like I mean I think the best like small business start is one where you can really test MVP and you know get out to markets talk to people unfortunately for me in the pet space I just knew from the gate like out of the gate that wasn't really gonna be an option and it was either kind of like go big or go home was really where we were at the same time we launched post pandemic or kind of in the tail end and there is still a lot of supply chain disruption um that also was a factor luckily for me I had a really good pulse of sort of who the best co manufacturers are in the pet space so I had that leg up for sure versus someone who kind of didn't know where to start I also had good relationships and had built you know kind of that reputation it goes back to you know that corporate life like you never know who you're gonna work with in the future and I I think it's really important to maintain those relationships so for me personally I already kind of knew who to contact the biggest aha moment was when I realized what our minimum order quantities were gonna be and we're talking hundreds of thousands of pounds you know not small orders and so I think you know the one thing about starting bundle of joy is I've never been able to play small which is kind of crazy because if you knew me like I don't know five 10 years ago like I was a very practical conservative very you know nervous Nelly like you know gotta make sure everything's been analyzed and I just had to jump right in like yeah and I didn't have a choice so and and really as it as we talk about co mans for us specifically our food for example is made on a particular manufacturing piece of equipment right that there's only a couple in the US so wow you know a lot of times it's like it's very specialized but I mean we've also had co mans that have not worked out right and it's always a gamble on both sides and you know I I would say in the beginning I was like kind of like whatever the co man says you know like payment terms things like that I think I could have been a little more in the beginning a little bit more focused on protecting myself but you get that over time yeah what are m 0 Q's look like in this space I I feel like launching a 15 skews out out the gate assuming the m 0 Q's are not super low that that feels like a a big first production run spent across 15 skews yeah I mean I'm I'm usually pretty public and sharing that I cashed in my 401k and my husband and I took a second on our house and that was just really what it was gonna take for us to just even buy inventory out of the begin out of the start we did raise some money with friends and family but early days I was literally just raising to pay for inventory for the most part yeah because of those investments that require and it takes time to catch up but yeah I mean minimum order quantities you know dog food can be you know 40,000 to 100,000 pounds of a flavor and so very early on I got really comfortable with being uncomfortable with having a lot of inventory and you know obviously that challenge was okay I have to run this production okay now I need to go find someone to buy it and I do think I do think that uniquely for us that has been what has propelled us maybe to grow and accelerate a little faster because I didn't have the choice to just go start selling door to door you know one store at a time I really had to secure anchor accounts in order for us to be able to actually stay in business and so I had to go full speed ahead and you know find some big guys to support us totally yeah I love that design standpoint at least from what I read your time in the pet space LED you to kind of believe that I think I read you say something along the lines like pet parenting has become kind of guilt ridden and I'm assuming I got that right like what were some of the the key things that were top of mind for you when you're building up the brand identity kind of from a positioning and voice standpoint yeah so my friend Christina and I really developed sort of the initial look and feel and and brand design together and spent a lot of time I I flew up to Berkeley and in her living room we had post its all over the wall and we were just really trying to anchor and hone in on you know what did we want to communicate what what did we want our brand to speak for and you know the one thing that we kept kind of coming back to was this immense amount of guilt that you know is very commonly felt for pet parents and I think it's just because over time with even just you go on social media for five minutes and there's gonna be a pet brand telling you that you're killing your dog because you're feeding them a particular type of food or because you're not spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars every month you know whatever they want to tell you and so that just kept popping up was like hey this actually doesn't really have to be complicated you could actually buy a food that has multiple health benefits in it versus buying multiple you know you actually can get affordable accessible pet nutrition with like a premium offering and so yeah I think in the early days we wanted to kind of kick this sort of dog mom guilt idea you know out and it kind of helped to build our community out the gate too is like hey like we're just doing our best and I feel like that has stuck with us I think it's something we want to continue to share and talk about more um is that you don't you don't have to feed all these fancy things that you see on social media to be a good pet parent totally I love that the brand like definitely not so great feedback from some of your industry peers but you trusted your gut and stuck to your guns and obviously it's turned out well I think you know my experience building company sticking to your sticking to your guns and vision is really important as a founder and tell me a bit about what what this was like for you when you felt like you know being in a particular industry for so long I had sort of put certain people on pedestals of like hey these people know what they're doing they've got it all figured out and so naturally I felt like those were the first people that I wanted to go tell about my ideas and share my ideas and yeah I got a lot of really negative feedback and I think a lot of it is also just cause I it came at such a different it came at it in such a different way I wanted to build a very female forward brand and company and you know when I told someone I'm gonna have purple and pink pet food bags you know it was kind of like nobody wants that you know it was literally a direct quote that I got from another CEO and yeah I took it very personally at first for sure you know at the time I think I was really more visionary and like kind of what I saw the opportunity could be and I think it was um a little early I would tell you now the industry has come along a bit more so I'm definitely not you know the only one sort of having these types of conversations about more diversity and representation in the industry and more representation of you know the kind of the female pet owners so women buy over 80% of pet products today it kind of goes back to that four bees of blue brown basic and boring and I thought you know what if I could create something I kept hearing people say oh I hide my pet food I put it away you know but yours I would leave on the shelf and I was like okay I like that so yeah that's great um so yeah I think you have to trust your guns I mean I would say there have been periods in my career where I've kind of leaned in and listened to other people more but gosh over the last five years individually as a person I have come so far and like spending more time really trusting myself and then also keeping that circle of trust you know a little bit tighter because you know everyone has opinions and some are not always in your best interest yeah yeah I think that's one of the hard one of the hardest things about being an entrepreneur is knowing what feedback to actually internalized and used to actually maybe make some pivots another one and when to just totally ignore it and say this is not at all relevant to me I know exactly what I'm doing this is you know I know this is the right path yeah I think it also as you grow right who you bring onto your team who you bring into your circle does help to really just start creating and developing the company and the brand naturally and so you know it's interesting it's been kind of fun to look back at the evolution to me it feels very constant because it's always been me and sort of my vision but when I really step out of that and look back I'm like oh okay like we we were here and then we sort of pivoted to here and then we kind of evolved here and you know early days I talked a lot about like leveling up OK it's time to level up again you know so I I think it's just it's constantly a song and dance right we're humans and just trying to find the right team and the right people around you to kind of help you to get through the next step whatever that might be totally yeah but it's feel like this is kind of really ambiguous and can be pretty challenging what did that process look like for you that ultimately landed you on bundle and joy yeah I mean like I said at the time I really we were in the middle of a pandemic so it was all DDC was on fire you know really and I think all of us thought we were never gonna go back into a store and you know maybe in some way shape or form and so I was very focused on DDC Alvigate and this idea of bundling sort of all your pets needs in one shipment just kind of kept coming full circle for me and so that's a lot of where like the bundle idea and then sort of this play on like hey your pet is kind of your child your bundle of joy that kept kind of circling back up it didn't connect with me as much but it did a lot in conversations and then the other the third piece that I always kind of had vision for the brand was this idea of collabs and sort of working with other brands and so I really felt like the X at the time represented sort of the ability for us to collaborate and support other brands and and companies and so and then for me personally the idea of joy has just been something that's resonated with me over the last 10 years probably you know I really our pets bring us so much joy but I think kind of going into the pandemic maybe we had forgot some of that and all of a sudden we were in our house 24 seven with our pets and I felt like I personally sort of reconnected with the joy of my of you know our dog and our in the home and I wanted to kind of help emote that emotion in our packaging and our brand and our community and so bundle and joy is like very complex to me I think to some people it's confusing you know it's funny to have a a brand name where you know it's like the it could be the people say it so many different ways but um but yeah it's meant a lot to us and then obviously with our packaging I also took a very different approach I wanted it to be kind of more um aspirational whimsical a little more inspirational our dog food brand our dog food formulations are vibrant brave and golden you know just a little bit more descriptive versus just very direct yeah yeah if I got this right to you that you started building community and leading up to the launch of the brand in terms of what you were focused on pre launch I mean very practically we didn't have product when we thought we would have it so you know here we all systems go and we didn't have product to ship so it was kind of like what do we do now and so we pivoted a bit to focus on community but you know the great thing is once we did finally launch we already had built this community of of fans and supporters who were able to sort of champion and start telling our story on our behalf early days um I think that was really important I mean candidly I look back and wish that we had you know dug our heels in even more because we were one of the first pet brands on TikTok Shop and things like that and there's you know there's probably a lot more we could have done to go even harder into building community via social the reality is that we just started to go full speed and and sales and launching and retailers and things I think we I think we started off really strong I think that it has always been an area where candidly it's kind of hard to get right because there's not a playbook for it but I do think it's something we're really starting to reinvest back in we just did a big dog mom walk in New York and we're like hey let's just put this dog mom walk together and see if anyone shows up you know we're not New York based and we had like 75 people show up on a Saturday to go walk with us so you know for 2026 I would say community is is gonna be first and foremost our probably our number one initiative um because it does really help us to connect with our customer and then you do get loyal fans that then tell you know their friends about us yeah word of mouth is definitely the strongest DDC launch you had secured shelf space and I think close to 500 doors what did that playbook look like to kind of make this happen and get in so many doors so quickly yeah I think it goes back to like I said like I knew early on we had to like go big or go home and so that meant that I signed up for Natural Products Expos which is a huge trade show for consumer product goods and I signed up in our new products area long before I even knew like would I have products would I be ready and you know at that point we did think we would have products but we did not so we still went and showed up and we literally built our booth like wood planks and all and you know drove it all the way from Arizona to California you know made mock packaging and and set up a booth like you know we had a brand and we had products and it felt like a big bluff to me at the at the time but it worked because I applied for like as many pitch opportunities at that trade show and you know in the course of you know that show basically we we were able to secure sprouts and Whole Foods pretty quickly so definitely if we had not been at Expo West that year you know we wouldn't have had those opportunities and that was just a decision that I made at the time but it it paid off for us so it's great did the did that generally make it easier to get on shelf in those first batch of retailers or was it harder or kind of a mix of both depending on the retailer I think it depended on the retailer to be honest cause there were definitely a lot of buyers that just said I just don't I don't get it sure but then they would also tell me in the same breath well my wife buys all the pet food and I would say well if you showed this to your wife she would be excited about it but I didn't say that of course but um I I mean I think I think the buyers that got it understood right away and that's why we were able to get on shelf yeah obviously intentionally wanted to be disruptive right want to catch your eye first you know then sort of sell you on the features and benefits get you to try it of course and then keep you for life but yeah we we built a brand and products with retail in mind day one and maybe not everyone does that but we did that being said you know probably I think it was 18 months ago we redid all of our packaging right cause there's still things we didn't get right we weren't talking enough about you know benefits problem solution things we had just overlooked you know weren't clear so there was just we did do a refinement cause we didn't get it right in the beginning but I don't know I as a CPG brand I think you're never gonna get it right you're just gonna keep iterating yep totally but yeah I mean I I definitely think it helped tremendously because even if someone had not maybe purchase our product before they be like oh I've seen this brand so that visual identity and that connection is really important I agree with that totally I think you're pretty intentional when it comes to supporting independent retailers we're also nailing down some of the bigger I guess kind of anchor accounts like how of have you kind of balance balance that dedication to some of these independent retailers while still kind of putting a big focus on the bigger guys like Walmart and what not we like I said we mentioned or we launched into kind of big retail I'll say um out of the gate and so I didn't have the ability to just say hey I'm I'm just here for you you know independent stores and that's it so I was very aware of sort of who we were from the beginning that being said we really tried to share you know our story how small our team was and still is today more of my story and we sort of just hoped that they would connect with us as people and and that's sort of where we started and that's where we did build some of that community and we have independent stores that have purchased our products since day one that continue to buy us knowing right that we're still in larger retail stores right that's great at the same time yeah at the same time we had retailers who sent us really nasty messages and emails that you know were like hey I heard you did a Costco roadshow clearly you're not supporting independent retailers anymore and how dare you and you know I think the reality is we sometimes like put small businesses into a box and say like hey we want you to be a small business and we have these expectations that you can't go to these places and the reality is like we're competing a lot against very large well funded businesses and so I don't have the same ability to pick and choose you know where I go and also I have to scale to grow into be profitable yeah and so you know I think that there have been those that have understood it and then there have been those that don't and it's okay because I I guess this year my mantra has sort of been like unless you're in the ring with me or you're currently in the ring as well your opinions don't mean as much to me because I'm the one that has my entire life savings on the line I'm the one that made a decision with my family that we were gonna change our lifestyle like I'm the one on the weekends that's at markets and at road shows and you know have just lived and breathe this company every single day and I'm fighting for it with my life literally and you know at some point you just kind of have to let go of those people that don't necessarily agree with what you're doing and I am so much more at peace about it because I don't know I'm too busy I've got things to do I admire that a lot well this year speaking of some of the larger retailers I think this year you launched into 500 or more Walmart locations which is huge what have you found is unique about and you might have worked with them in in some of your your past lives too but what have you found is unique about working with and I guess really winning in Walmart in the pet space surprisingly I Walmart was a new partner for me and so I kind of went in you know really unsure I guess I had heard things through the years maybe not always the most positive about experiences of working with Walmart and I have to tell you like it the buying teams the leadership team have been so gracious and supportive of our brand that's all since day one uh it's definitely been a journey right to work together to get to where we are but I have felt so much support from them since we launched and it was a a lot of work to get there but you know we are in sort of premium pet locations for them and you know people are looking for premium pet food and I'm already in the space it's just gonna keep happening and there's another big pet brand that just recently has announced they're kind of going everywhere right like there is coming a point where a premium pet shopper is shopping all over the place and so we're just really focused on being where the customer is um and providing that convenience and that kind of consistent pricing and affordability and premium nutrition Walmart's been a great partner for us in that regard um and I love I love that I have a company and brand and products that can be successful um you know in a sprouts and in a Walmart in Costco and also on Amazon so I think it's been a little bit of a unique pass for us being in multi channel distribution yeah and there are definitely have been times where I'm like okay did I do this wrong but if at the end of the day I'm really just intending to provide premium nutrition and options in an affordable and accessible way to my customer then I kind of have to honor her or him and where they're shopping and that's what we've done and I think so far it's been the thing that's allowed us to grow 2 3 x year over year and to continue to just be successful on shelf you know 18 meetings to get the deal done it's a long journey what just for some other early stage founders in in the pet space or maybe just in in general in the CPG space that are at Walmart what what should they expect in terms of if they want to have a shot on shelf I guess my feedback would be for any retailer right I think there's a couple things you can do that give you a much higher propensity for potential success I think the first one is applying for pitch competitions submissions right a lot more of these retailers are doing small business calls Main USA calls you know put yourself out there I can't tell you how many things I've applied to in the last five years I've gotten a whole lot of nos right but if I hadn't taken the time to apply I wouldn't have had the yes totally so I think that's so important number one I think for us range me actually has been a great resource for us over the last couple years there are options and ways to kind of get like a lower priced account but that really has opened us up to retailers a lot of retailers will also post kind of like calls or opportunities on there and I again early days applied for every single thing I still do um on range me and that opened a lot of meetings and conversations and then I think the third one is just being scrappy like you might be surprised you might actually be able to email a buyer directly um and kind of throw yourself out there get some samples in someone's hands like you know you only you only get the shots right I'm so bad on analogies but you miss 100% of the shots you don't take right Wayne Gretzky something I I always get these things wrong I should not share quotes your statistics will show that you need to put yourself out there 10 times more than you think you have to and and then there's a little bit of bluffing a little bit of confidence a little bit of fake it till you make it and then as long as you have a product that actually people want then that's kind of the key to success you also mentioned Costco a little bit is there anything I mean obviously there's the roadshow aspect but anything that's really unique about about Costco compared to the other retailers that in terms of what it takes to win there yeah I think Costco is looking for innovation and and newness right companies products that people are gonna recognize and be excited about on shelves so it is very much becoming a lot about sort of your brand recognition on social and other channels which I think is happening everywhere but I do see a lot more of that happening with Costco road shows are definitely a huge piece of success you have to prove that you can sell product before you can come in and take space because if you think of the productivity of a typical Costco warehouse like you you have to be super productive and have pretty high velocities so I think Costco is really a long term investment for a lot of brands but honestly they're one of the best partners to work with and for us we believe there's so much opportunity to keep growing with Costco and also the nice thing about Costco is anytime we're in store in warehouses or we did a rotation earlier this year right like I now have 30,000 potential new customers who have tried my product and who are gonna be looking for that product wherever they can find it and so Costco's an amazing channel typically I would say it's a channel most brands don't get the opportunity for um out of the gate of course but you can control a bit more of your destiny there than you might think yeah totally that's really helpful yeah just a lot of really great insights here last question for you any any specific brands or just other trends you're kind of tracking following in in the pet space that have got you excited or things you're watching closely I think that we are just starting to learn you know more around the total health impact of gut health for us I think there's a lot of education specifically in the pet space to come there and I'm excited to be sort of a part of that and to keep learning as we implore sort of more human grade ingredients we have two ingredients with colostrum for example two ingredients with collagen we have just developed you know daily boost powders that are kind of similar to you know the AG1 and the AMRA's and you know some of the human products out there so I'm excited about that I also think that you know how we think about specific breeds is still an opportunity you know nine times out of 10 if I meet somebody that has a golden doodle for example they'll tell me their dog has a lot of stomach issues and I'll say yeah that's cause your dog is very highly allergic to chicken and they're like what and I'm like yeah I it's just a golden doodle thing so I think we will continue to learn more about breed specific hopefully over time um I think there's a lot that can be Learned there but yeah I mean right now we're just focused on sort of telling our story and getting people to try us we're just getting started it feels it has does feel like it's been a lifetime but it's only been a few years but I'm excited what the next few years hold for sure now we'll be following closely what's um what's the best place for people to follow along with you with how much expertise you've got in the space and then what's the best place these days for people to follow along with the brand as well so our website is bundle x joy.com we have a great store locator on our website which you can just put in your address and find the closest retailer to you because we are in so many new different retailers across the US um we're also on Amazon and we just recently announced our launch on chewy as well so we have a lot of ways to make it convenient and easy um for you to buy your bundle and joy products um we're on Social Bundle X Joy on Instagram and TikTok we love to just share kind of the dog mom journey and as we move forward next year I hope to be sharing even more around sort of real talk around pet nutrition and sharing a lot of what I've Learned over the last two decades awesome love it well thanks Jess it's been great really appreciate the time I think that's the pod before you launched bundle and enjoy and after you left from a brand identity packaging yeah I think naming is such an important part of building a brand what did this look like for you a go to market standpoint I think within like 8 8 months or so of uh I call it just different brand look but the truth is that like