Inside the Pickle-in-a-Pouch Licensing Playbook | Eric Girard, Van Holten's

Speaker: 00:00
All right. Welcome to Shelf Help. Today we're speaking with Eric Girard, who is the VP of sales and marketing at Van Holten's Pickle in a Pouch, the infamous pickle brand that partners with iconic names like Warheads and Pringles, just to name a few. Eric's been a sales and marketing leader in the CBJ's for CPG space for quite a while. So excited to get to learn about Holly's experience and expertise. But uh yeah, let's jump in. I mean, I guess just for the first off, Eric, just for the listeners, the ones that aren't that familiar with the Van Holdens, maybe just kind of give us a quick lay of the land in terms of origin story, the why behind the brand. And I think there was a purchase at some point, some of the core products you guys offer, and maybe just a few places people can get their hands on them, and then uh we'll go from there.

Speaker 1: 00:46
Yeah, thank you for your time. Um, you know, we are an old school brand that has taken off and acted very entrepreneurial despite, you know, that that kind of legacy that we have. Van Holten's has been incorporated since 1898. So we've been doing business that long. Originally it was a Dutch immigrant that was doing vinegar and things like that, evolved into relishes, sauerkraut. And in 1949, they put a pickle in a pouch. Uh, not sure exactly that. Uh, our owner said maybe they think it had something to do with like shortages in jars or something. But they were very, the Van Holten's family was very entrepreneurial with that. Flash forward to the early 90s. Uh, Jim Burns, our current president and owner, Steve Burns, his father, purchased the company in duress, is probably the best way to say it without getting into a lot of details, and uh got involved and really identified the pickle in a pouch as something different than relish, as something different than sauerkraut, and and leaned into it. And over the years, before I was with the company, really focused everything on pickle in a pouch, moving out of sauerkraut, moving out of relish. And, you know, to today, uh, you know, we are the uh the the gas station pickle or the sea store pickle. And, you know, it's something that, you know, the relish and and all that went away, and and we've been able to focus on that. So a lot of times when I'm with category managers, I say, we're the pickle company that's not a pickle company. We're a snack company that on our snack happens to be pickles.

Speaker: 02:26
I know you've been with Van Holten's for quite a while. I think it's 15 plus years or so. I'm curious just from your take, how has the pickle category evolved since you came on board? And what are some of like the biggest changes you've seen and things that have basically not changed at all?

Speaker 1: 02:41
Yeah, so it'll be close to 17 years for me that I've held some sort of role with Van Holton's Pickles, starting as a regional sales manager, you know, going out to wholesalers, going out to retailers, trying to earn shelf space. Uh there's a retailer here in southern Wisconsin, northern Illinois, Kelly's Markets, and category manager said to me, I don't know, about a year or two ago, you know, he said he used to come in begging for one skew to be in our like sandwich cold case. And he's like, now I have two or three of your skews, one or two of your competitors, and then there's even a third brand I'm thinking about coming in. So, you know, we we'd like to think that we're in the forefront of it. Uh, we definitely had some competitive pressures too that pushed us, but you know, we really opened it up as a snack, and as competitors have come in, we've still seen our sales grow. Uh, you know, they've definitely taken, you know, O snap pickles, for example, taken a slice of the pie, but they've grown the pie. So, you know, leaning into that snack thing, kind of snack first, pickle second, even though that sounds silly, has really been successful for us.

Speaker: 03:50
Where do you see this pickle category yet 10 years from now? Do you think there's going to be any big evolutions, kind of things you're seeing on the horizon, or this kind of can steady, continued growth and more and more popularity as you've seen over the past few years?

Speaker 1: 04:04
Yeah, I mean, I think that you know there's a couple different dynamics. There's kind of the the whole, you know, people are eating differently in general, right? You know, I'm a kid of the 80s and you know, it was just sugar, right? Give me as much Oreos, 7 Eleven Slurpees, you know, all that. Now you see people leaning into more savory. You see the keto and the whole 30. I mean, pickles are basically zero calorie, no fat. Uh, pickle juice itself, not just Van Holten's, but anyone's is helps you rehydrate. So there's there's that whole kind of function of like, you know, it it's a fun way to snack and get refreshed without overfilling. So there's that aspect of it. You know, we we don't lean into a lot of health claims and stuff like that. You know, we just want the people that know know that and they'll seek that out. But then, you know, from the it's not quite as a blank palette as yogurt, where you can add a flavor to it. But a pickle is a palette that you can add things to, that you can add buffalo or hot or more sour, or you know, we've even played around a lot with the sweet flavors. Uh, so I think you will continue to see us and other companies start to now really lean into, you know, how can we make that pickle a different flavor occasion, a fun flavor occasion that's more than just uh a slice on top of your burger? Yeah. And we're still in the middle of the whole TikTok pickle phase, too.

Speaker: 05:31
True. Good point. Along that track, diving into the weeds a bit. I know IP licensing and kind of co-branding has is and and has been a core part of the the growth strategy as of late, at least. We just curious to kind of taking a step back. What point did the did Van Holden start exploring partnerships like this? And I'm kind of curious, like thinking back what kind of data points or just trends you were seeing as you're following along on Instagram or TikTok, what led the company to the decision to start investing time and resources in this strategy?

Speaker 1: 06:03
Yeah, yeah. And you know, this going further back in my timeline with the company, but yeah, we we have core flavors of dill and hot, which make up, you know, 80 plus percent of our sales. You know, and then we have sour and garlic, and it's always been those four core flavors. Other competitors, they have versions of those flavors. You know, we we've launched a potlet, a competitor launched a chili lime. You know, we never really saw that our new flavors go quite quite actually kind of bombed and kind of the same with our competitors. And you know, looking at the space, I mean, I'll be totally honest, is we were approached by Tapatillo at a trade show, or technically a licensing agency for Tapatillo, to say, hey, this is a great brand, what you guys have. And we think that the Tapatillo, and again, I was very aware just from a consumer aspect of how much hot food is getting popular, you know, watching Takis, watching hot Cheetos, watching that stuff really get there. So it was a bit of a sell point, honestly. Uh, yeah, I'd say this, I have great relationships with the owner and my co-workers, but it took me a while to sell that internally because they were like, hey, Chipotle Bond, uh, you know, these other things we've done as a bond, you know, we sell Dylan hot pickles. Why would we pay a royalty to do this? But when I started asking around in Tapatillo, they're a great partner. Um, they allowed us to pre-kind of pre-sell it and ask questions of category managers. I said, Hey, I'm I'm not gonna say this when I ask, and I got amazingly positive feedback. And what blew me away is I had category managers respond to me, give me meetings that wouldn't respond to my emails before when I mentioned the Tapateo.

Speaker: 07:48
Wow.

Speaker 1: 07:49
So that was massively eye-opening for me. So we launched Tapateo. Uh, what I've done, and what's nice about being in a small company where you're not siloed, I'm talking to customers and I'm talking to product development, and I'm looking at the financials. So I know what it costs to pay the royalties and the impact that has on us. But I'm taking that to 7-Eleven and 7-Eleven actually helped us launch Tapatillo in 2019. So we launched with a partner, and and that was really, you know, eye-opening for what that could do for us. Uh, you know, from from that point, uh, I created an Instagram account and just started following CPG companies like crazy. And, you know, the the the pandemic definitely delayed us because we were we were just booming with sales during the pandemic. We we went crazy in 2021. So that kind of held on our held our innovation back a little because we're just making Dylan hot pickles. But, you know, that that top of T I always say is our gateway drug to licensing, uh, and it it was a great start.

Speaker: 08:56
Yeah, that's a great partner to start with for sure. As you started to hone in this process and and look at additional licensing partners, what are some of like the I don't know, parameters? It may be like an actual, you know, true checklist, or maybe it's just kind of a rough thing that something feels good, some of like a gut feeling. But are there any yeah, certain parameters or qualifications that from your mind a brand must meet in order to qualify or be a good fit?

Speaker 1: 09:22
What it yeah, I mean, honestly, it's it's a gut feel. I mean, what you know, we're a small privately held company, you know, I'm responsible for the PL. We spend little to nothing on data and marketing research. You took that, you take, you know, $25,000 and said, would you rather spend that on a slotting fee to get into a store or a licensing fee to have a new brand? I would rather do that. It you know, it can be challenging sometimes when you know it's a data-oriented world. But to circle back to your question, we take our results seriously, but we don't take ourselves too seriously. We sell pickles in a bag. It's a silly product. Everyone laughs at it, everyone smiles when I tell them what my job is, whether for whatever reason they smile, they smile. And you know, so when I'm out there looking for brands, I'm looking for brands that are fun and have that pop culture feel that we have. You know, we'll talk a little bit about our recent package redesign, but we did one back in 2020 also, which I really think was a catalyst to getting us on more. I noticed immediately, again, I'm was the Instagram guy back then. Yeah, up until the past couple years, I was the social media person. I shouldn't be now because I'm too old and out of it for that. But uh I noticed immediately people started holding our product up and taking selfies with it, especially with Tapatillo. You know, so I just sought out brands and honestly, Warheads, Impact Confections. I just said, Man, this this Instagram feed feels like what I want our brand to feel like. And I know sour is incredibly popular, and pickles are sour. Honestly, I think the owner thought I was high when I suggested reaching out to them. And I did. They're literally uh their factory, I had no idea, was 45 minutes away from our factory. And I told their director of marketing on LinkedIn said I have this crazy idea. And uh Lindsay said, Let's talk about it, and we did. That's awesome, you know, and and I continue that today. We have always have conversations going. We've had conversations going, a lot of NDAs on this, and some don't pan out, right? You know, whether it's the flavor is not quite right, you know, because again, it's it's a pickle, so you see there's still only so much you can do, you know, or the brand changes their mind, or we change our mind. You know, there are amazing, you know, billion-dollar brands out there that, you know, are very well known and things like that, but they don't have that fun fact or it wouldn't look good on a pickle in a pouch like uh like the Pringle's head, it's not gonna fit.

Speaker: 11:53
You mentioned getting getting the flavor right. That was one question I was I was thinking about. Like, you know, once you've decision has been made to push forward on a IP licensing partnership like Tapatillo or Warhead's RD and like formulation process look like.

Speaker 1: 12:10
You know, it's it's not easy. I mean, a Tapatillo is our first one. So, I mean, I don't know, there are like 27 different iterations of that. Uh, you know, we we've gotten better understanding how to work with flavor in it, so that that's helped. But uh, you know, it's a vin it's a strong vinegar flavor. So there's gonna be guardrails on what you can do from a standpoint. We usually with a partner prefer a signed deal or at least uh a rough structure on what royalties and terms are before we go too far. But you know, we'll uh we will look for once we kind of have that in line, is we'll look for the essence of that flavor. That's what our owner says. You can't do an exact match for tapatio, you can't do an exact match for Prinkles, but you want the essence of what that is uh and how that plays with a pickle. So I mean, there have been zero that we've made it and said, this works, we're done. Because we have to get it to a point where we say, does this work? And from a costing perspective, you know, we're introducing new ingredients and things we haven't used. It probably costs more to make it. All of our licensed products have a production cost than our number one selling dill pickle. Uh, you know, so we don't like, you know, obviously that can be in a range, it won't look too big. So once we we kind of get that, then we have to send it to the partner. And you know, then you're doing tastings, you're trying to, you're doing virtual tastings, you're telling them how to slice it, you know, with uh Mega Chamoy, which is a Mexican company, they're all in Mexico, they don't even understand what a pickle in a bag is, right? You have their their marketing person, Allie, she's just sharp as attack, and she saw this trend on social media like I did. But you know, then she has to explain it to a high-level executive at this guy, Guadalajara, of what is this thing we're even eating?

unknown: 14:06
Yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:06
So it can definitely be it's not just this brand is cool and let's do it. It's a lot of work.

Speaker: 14:11
Yeah, for sure. I'm sure there's a lot goes into it. And you mentioned like a few minutes ago about when you approached your team with the initial deal that Tabatia won and got pushed back like, oh, what why are we gonna pay royalty on this front? Similar kind of story company I built previously in the Canvas phase kind of licensing partnerships are are pretty common, but I would say the large majority of them don't end up working out. And I think it's largely because it's usually like a you know, a typical, pretty straightforward like royalty structure where it's typically, you know, the brand who's licensing the other, you know, brands IP is basically paying somewhere between like a 10 to 15 percent royalty. And in that market at least, it's so price sensitive. Oftentimes the the IP licensor isn't actually contributing, bring much to the table that's actually gonna help offset the price difference. I think a lot of them don't work out because that brand who's licensing the IP has to pay that 10 to 15% royalty back to the IP licensor, but they haven't really found an ability to actually increase the price at all compared to what they're selling other products for, and it's ultimately the cost of the product is the same. And so the just the numbers often just don't work out. I'm not so I'm kind of curious in this world where it seems like it's it's worked and you guys have a lot of success, like what is the yeah, what does a typical deal structure look like?

Speaker 1: 15:28
You know, it's not then set in stone. I'll I'll say we are without divulging all the different deals, you know, it's gotta be below 10%. You know, we've talked to brands that, hey, I think this can work, but you know, the amount they want, which you know, I I don't begrudge them that, right? This is your brand. You know, we're gonna throw this on a bag of a pickle bag, and you know, you you want that. So typically it'll you know, it would need to be kind of south of that that that 10% range. We will like the product to be profitable, right? You know, if we're gonna put it on a shelf space and and we're gonna go to that distribution and the fees involved with that, it needs to make a decent margin. From a holistic perspective, uh, you know, for PL responsibility and looking at the brand, I'm okay with that lower margin. If it's part of my father-in-law, who's not with us and it's a different business, but he said, if you're selling widgets, you can always sell a widget for lower margin as part of your product array if it helps you sell other widgets, right? So uh a warheads pickle, Tapateo pickle, that helps us sell dill pickles, yeah, right? That helps brokers, manufacturers, reps be more interested in representing Alex, that helps category managers want to stop by our booth. And yeah, when and HEB in Texas was a great one. They put our products in because I sent them, I mean, it is a it was a horrible-looking package. It wasn't what we ended up. I said, this is what we're thinking of. They put in our big papa hot mama skews are Dylan Ha. And we've been there for something like seven, eight years now, and they're a great partner, a great customer. They never actually added the licensed item.

Speaker: 17:10
But it opened the door, it opened the uh got the conversation going, right. I get that for sure.

Speaker 1: 17:14
Yeah, yeah, and same with uh Five Below. Five Below has become a great partner of ours. Uh uh because again, they really see that pop culture and innovation. They they've been feeding us new product ideas that we've been working on taking to market.

Speaker: 17:30
Wow.

Speaker 1: 17:30
And it started with warheads. Because they saw warheads, they they brought in, you know, we now have, depending on the planogram, up to five SKUs. And they literally followed up on a press release and got to me from like a LinkedIn or a PR post or something like that, and now have turned into a very significant customer for us.

Speaker: 17:52
Yeah. And in part of the agreements, is it um let's just say you don't have to speak to Warhead specifically, but using that one as an example as part of that licensing agreement? Is there language in there that typically asks that brand, like the Warheads ones, an example, to make commitments in terms of stuff they're gonna do to help drive sales, whether it's I don't know, social content or helping with demos along those lines.

Speaker 1: 18:19
And it's it's different with each partner.

Speaker: 18:21
Sure.

Speaker 1: 18:22
Warner Brothers and Pickle Rick is a lot more detailed and structured than impact confections with Warhead. You know, most of the agreement is really on how to use the product, make sure that we follow the style guide and terms. I mean, typically we sign three-year terms and often extend them if the product does well, but you have to put a minimum guarantee. You know, this is the royalties we'll pay. And if for some reason the product bombs, you have an annual minimum guarantee, and you might have to pay that even if your royalties aren't reaching it. Um, you know, we have yet to have that happen with any of our products yet, you know, whatever level of success. So that the agreements are really about that. The partnership is more of just kind of building rapport and understanding, okay, how can we work together to take our products to market? Where can we do social collaboration? You know, where can we do that? And, you know, it's different. I have a meeting coming up with Mars Kelanova to talk about Pringles to say, like, hey, this is the social collabs are great, but how can we go to um, you know, a retailer and say, we've got two great brands, how can all three of them work together?

Speaker: 19:32
Yeah, totally. That makes a lot of sense. You mentioned that the Chamoy partnership. I think I read like, you know, V1 didn't work out as I expected. You tried again and and saw success. Can you just curious about what that journey was like in terms of it didn't work, but you guys super committed, hey, we think this could work, we're gonna keep trying and until it works, and eventually it did.

Speaker 1: 19:51
Yeah, I mean it's it's it's just it's there is that expectation of explaining to someone who's not a pickle and a pouch consumer like why this works. So there that that's that's one step. I mean, but the other is just kind of getting the ingredients right. I mean, you know, warheads was the best, and and yeah, we still won't say hate, but we get a lot of negative comments to say this isn't insanely sour. You know, it's it's a the first versions we tested were insanely sour. And we said to ourselves and we said to the team at Impact Confections, like, hey, this is great, but we're not going for the one chip challenge, like I'm gonna buy this once and force myself to eat it in YouTube in front of people. We're going for terms, right? Right. And so if someone goes on YouTube and says this isn't sour enough for me, that's okay. Right? You know, but it was kind of that fine line of you know, we quickly decided, okay, we can't go extreme as ex as warheads can be and dialing it back. And there was a ton of back and forth in that, and this kind of tasting of what their expectations were and what our realization of you know what we can and can't sell. You know, would I do a license that's a one-time production run, a one-time push out there? Possibly, if there was some sort of ROI on that. But what I'm more looking for with those three-year terms is the first year, you're just getting awareness. The second, you know how planogram cycles work. I mean, I just got an email for a planogram cycle for late 2026 that's that's due next week. Wow. You know, so if my innovation's not ready, it's you know, if I don't have a UPC and an imagery to submit and things like that, you know, then I'm waiting until 2027. So, you know, I want those three-year terms, you know, because it's really the third year when you're when you're really securely getting that planet grant space.

Speaker: 21:43
Yeah. Totally. Just to kind of tall this this licensing stuff together, let's just say for other mark CPG marketing sales leaders, that what are maybe just a few things that you tell them they should keep top of mind or recommendations you might have for them as as they're getting going in this organization as a big Focus on this licensing stuff.

Speaker 1: 22:02
Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, number one is you have to know your brand, right? And you have to know your customers and what they're looking for. And um, you know, like I said, needs to be fun to match pickles, to match pickle in a pouch. And frankly, the other thing is you have to have a lot going because it's not all gonna pan out. You know, I mean, we had one that got to the one-yard line and got we didn't get it across the goal line. It had nothing to do with the people working on the project, it had something to do with the, you know, the got to the C-suite and it got killed at a big company, you know. So if you only have that, and it's the same as, you know, I'm a salesperson at heart. I love the marketing, you know, I love the brand building, I'm passionate about Van Holden's, but yeah, I'm a salesperson at heart. And, you know, you have to be working 20 different deals, you know, and if 20 of them all work out, then you've got a great problem to solve. Right. But that's probably not gonna happen.

Speaker: 22:58
Yep, that's a great tip. We talked about a bit about the Tapatillo flavor, the Chamoy flavor, warheads, those are all pretty different. I'm pretty sure Van Holten's is sold at this point all over the world, like Canada, UK, EU, Australia, et cetera. I'm I'm curious, have you found consumers in each of those markets have pretty distinct flavor preferences and buying patterns? And if so, like how how tailored do you get in terms of with your approach to each market? Like, does the Warheads one only work in the US, or does that work in other markets?

Speaker 1: 23:26
I mean, and and honestly, we we kind of stumbled into this due to TikTok. Yeah, we I really noticed it, I want to say 2022 going into 2023. You know, these orders are popping out of nowhere. Um in Perth, Australia, grocery stores were getting it, and again, we weren't even involved. They're essentially, you know, not diversion, but it's they're getting it from wholesalers and bringing it in.

Speaker: 23:56
Right.

Speaker 1: 23:56
And you know, calling it the TikTok pickle and putting it out. So, you know, we had an incredible assist from that. So, you know, what I've been doing is just kind of leaning into that assist I got. Uh, and that's really where warheads came from. It was like, okay, that this this this fits in. You know, flavor profiles are totally different. Uh, I I was at a trade show in Germany in 2023, and I mean you you have to explain the whole product, not just the company and all that. Uh, so it's really that Gen Z that does it, that gets it for us. And and we are selling in Europe now. And we do find the licensing is very strong for us there. So the best example would actually be not flavor, but our licensing with Warner Brothers and Rick and Morty for our pickle rick pickle. That that's I think it's maybe changed now, but originally as we rolled out in Europe, that was our number one seller.

Speaker: 24:53
Oh, wow.

Speaker 1: 24:54
So, so people crave that American pop culture. So, you know, we we've leaned into that. And then, you know, this is a whole other uh topic of conversation, but the other thing we did is we're in this whole food dye transition right now. We took our food dyes out so that we could be in Europe in a more formal way. Yeah. So that you know, that that's been a whole learning process as well.

Speaker: 25:19
I was gonna ask about that actually, because I know you know each country have different regulations around ingredients, how products can be made. And it sounds like you have to tweak customized formulations for multiple markets. I'm curious, how does that work? Are you running, you know, uh as you're selling in these other markets using the same lines and just ones you have to totally clean it out and then do the line for this run for this next country?

Speaker 1: 25:41
How does that we we have and Steve Burns, our owner, and you know, we're we're a small privately held company, all right? So we're not like private equity looking to spin off, we're not looking to make quarterly numbers. I mean, we're looking for long-term sustained growth and profitability. Yeah. Part of that, part of that PNL responsibility. So, yeah, we have added capacity to the factory to be able to do that. We've had to make different lines. We have we're becoming more nimble and flexible in learning how to switch lines to be able to move among production. Again, that's not my role, but you know, heavily engaged in those conversations. And there is the uh, as our production director says it, the Eric Gerard International Brine Wing that we had to add, you know, for for this, so that we could supply Europe in a way that was efficient to us. And um, you know, and and that's all great because I'm not gonna state here exactly when we'll do it. You know, we'll take those food dyes out of our formulations here in the US. Uh, so it was an amazing blessing that we figured out how to do that for Europe first.

Speaker: 26:44
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1: 26:45
A lot of companies that have done nothing to figure out how to produce without food ties. Uh, so you know, thank thank you to TikTok and pushing us into Europe. We got an amazing head start.

Speaker: 26:56
That's great. That's awesome. Shifting gears a bit from a visual identity packaging design standpoint. I'm pretty sure I've heard you say something along the lines of as you're as you think about packaging design, the package has to win the thumbnail first. 90% of discovery starts in a nine by six, nine by sixteen screen, which I totally get where you're coming from there. But I'm curious, can you just kind of speak to this approach a bit and how you think about this when you guys are looking at a packaging design?

Speaker 1: 27:21
Yeah, I mean, we've really leaned heavily into bright colors. And again, I I I just go back to fun and go back to pop culture, right? You know, you could put little garlic clothes or dill or things like that on your product to do that. That that's that's not where we go. I mean, we we know that um, you know, our product lends itself to fun and flavor exploration. So you see people putting fruit roll-ups around it, people coring out the pickle and putting takis and gushers. So that that visual piece that wanting to see that, you know, going with uh bright blue for our dill and bright red really helps us just pop out win attention right away on that screen. And yeah, but it it helps us. We also leaned heavily into pickle in a pouch, and we've put that at the top of our packaging now and really focused on that as our, you know, there's some trademarking issues with descriptives. We can't really trademark that, but we want to be the pickle in a pouch, pickle in a bag. We want to be fun.

Speaker: 28:23
Pretty sure you guys rolled out a packaging redesign last year, I think it was. Where I just want to start with is just why, like meaning what led to that decision to go through that packaging redesign process in the first place.

Speaker 1: 28:35
Well, I think you know, we go back to we really hadn't done much throughout the history of the Van Holton's every, you know, maybe 10 years or something, some tweaks. And, you know, we did a more significant tweak in 2021. And, you know, I I firmly believe that was led to our success because again, all of a sudden the selfies of people holding a tapateal pickle leaped with us. So uh, you know, and you look at Budweiser, you look at these big brands, they refresh their packaging regularly to call out on the shelf. So uh, you know, we we leaned into that from the pop culture thing that was happening to us, you know, and you know, just from the the shelf space and really identifying us with pickle in a pouch. And and you know, we're it makes a difference. We're getting great comments from buyers, great comments from category managers, uh just the local grocery store iShop. We were always kind of down in the corner at high V, and all of a sudden they noticed with our new packaging, the manager put us in a much better situation, right? And you know, it's the same product, it's still pickles, but I would really think that that packaging helped.

Speaker: 29:44
You've talked about sea stores, have you called this like the gas station pickle. Um, I know that's a big channel for you guys. Compared to you said, like, you know, five below is a big customer for you guys as well, and HEB, curious, like what's what have you found is is really unique about this Sea Store channel, and what have you found over the years is really key to winning, and maybe especially what's key to winning that maybe is different than yeah, your traditional retail, let's say.

Speaker 1: 30:11
Yeah, I mean key key to winning is all about velocity. Yeah, I'm a category manager can like or dislike certain things, but shelf space is column inches, and how much can you sell in that shelf space? So we have to show the velocity, and that's why showing or updating packaging, showing that that piece. And we have to show incrementality too. It can be a challenge because we're going up against huge brands that you know are coming in with shelf space studies and things like that. We have to show we're getting them incremental business. And, you know, the best example is, you know, I won't name the retailer just to not share that, but I was talking to a retailer the other day, she put us in next to our competitor. You know, I've been begging for that space, begging for that space, you know, because we lost it to them. And I said, you can sell both. And she said, I haven't seen cannibalization of our current item. You know, you're bringing something different. And and the challenge to kind of you know, loop back to all this pop culture stuff I have. I mean, you know, we're still selling pickles to Bubba, constantly be coming up with ways to solve convenient stores, category managers and or store managers' problems and make it easy for them.

Speaker: 31:23
That's really helpful. Thinking about marketing resources, getting the most out of your budget, when do you think about resourcing? What how do you think about in terms of what variables or frameworks are you think about in the context of do you build out your plan with regards to internal versus external resources? Like, are there certain functions you feel like, you know, whether it's I don't know, influencer management or creative agencies, packaging design, et cetera, that you always feel like, yeah, we need to have this in-house versus contract out, or is it pretty situational?

Speaker 1: 31:52
I mean, somewhat situational. I mean, we we just brought on a marketing director. We've had kind of different fresh out of college marketing coordinators, marketing roles over the time that I've been with the company, you know, great people that have come in and out of the company, but you know, bringing in someone that has done packaging relaunches before that's been critical. But, you know, we don't really spend a lot of money in marketing budgets. To me, most of what we spend is on that B2B timeframe, B2B, uh and getting in front of category managers and getting that, you know. I mean, some of the advertising, you know, is you know, what comes first is the cart of the horse. But, you know, from my standpoint and being in the trenches, is it's all about gaining and maintaining that retail distribution to build your brand. And, you know, from that B2B, trade shows are massively important. Being at Sweets and Snacks, being at NACs, being at IDDBA, that is critical for our business.

Speaker: 32:52
Totally. On that, on that track, I know you guys have had a lot of success at at trades over the years. What have you found is is key to let's just say maximizing ROI at a trade show in terms of what generates the most success, gets most attention.

Speaker 1: 33:06
I I tell you what, if Sweets and Snacks is a great trade show, uh, you know, people from all over the world attend that. It's moved from Chicago to a mix of Indy and Vegas. Uh that's my favorite show of the year. I usually lose my voice every year because I talk so much. Uh but good so the kind of looping back to the licensing and the new item and that stuff, having something in the new item case every year draws traffic to our booth. And again, they may not buy that product, but it shows that, you know, hey, this is an innovative company that I need to look at, that I need to come over, and then we need to scan their badge with the app. And what's really critical, and yeah, I won't divulge my age, but I've been doing this for a while, and I I come from more of the handshaker to get get out in the car and go see people. I've I've flown across the country to hear the word no. So now I, you know, you just now you just get unreturned emails, and that's your no. So that is often your only chance to build some conversation and rapport. You know, if that category manager, or if she comes by your booth and has a positive interaction with myself or Ian or Steve, you're more likely going to get that email returned, right? And you know, here's a reason I need to talk to these people. So it's your shot at FaceTime.

Speaker: 34:25
Sure. Other than having a new product in the shelf, which totally makes sense. Like any other tactics, strategy that thinking back that you found has really worked, whether it's I don't know, having a big loud colour from mascot in the front of the booth trying to draw people in, or anything that you found that's has had the most impact?

Speaker 1: 34:44
It's the old is schools. The first question, or one of the first questions I ask in any job interview is what's the most important part of sales is follow-up. Right? I mean, every person that comes by our booth is gonna get an email or a text or a phone call or something like that. So it's the preparing, doing whatever marketing we can ahead of time to say on LinkedIn we're gonna be there, to whatever platform Natx may offer to, you know, on their site, you know, now it's all apps. I'm gonna pre-plan my show. So, you know, that $500 package that makes sure you have a picture of your item on the app on your booth, that's worth it. Do that. You know, don't don't be stingy. Uh you know, I still see small brands and I get it. Uh, and I'm friends with a lot of people that uh will come to me and say, Hey, I know you're a small company, let's talk. I still see them with notepads writing Adam's name down. I'm like, no, buy the lead app so you can scan their badge, and then you can get that. So we don't do we don't get too gimmick. We we don't do a pickle outfit. Um, you know, we really just try to make our booth welcoming, use the bright colors to catch our attention, you know, get get the best spot possible, and you know, work our asses off day of the show.

Speaker: 36:00
Yep, totally. Last question for you, Eric. Any uh, you've been in the CBG space for quite a while at this point. Sounds like you're tracking trends and whatnot and TikTok and Instagram, any specific brands just in the broader CPG space or just general trends that you're particularly excited about or been been tracking at all?

Speaker 1: 36:18
Well, I mean, you know, the it kind of what started our conversations is the partnerships. I mean, I think the younger consumers expecting it. I think it's challenging production people. It's challenging, you know, because it I mean, the easiest thing would be to make one flavor of pickle and never change the pack size or never change anything. I mean, our efficiencies with the factory would go through the roof, right? But volume would go way down. Uh, so I I think that you're gonna continue to see a challenge with the right amount of innovation for your brand. Is it gonna be easier for a you know a Mars or a uh you know a Mondeleese or someone to pull that off? Heck yeah. But you know, for for smaller or scaling brands, it's it's finding that that that innovation that fit that is true to your story of of who you are and getting that. And and then I think I mean the other I have I have you know young teenagers and young 20-something, and it's snacking. I mean the snacking is over meals, you know, is so incredible. And just that that variety in snacking. So I think you know, we're playing around with a new concept I can't talk about yet, but a line extension that would would be a different product, but it's it's snacking. It's snacking, it's protein, it's people using food for functionality. So yeah.

Speaker: 37:41
All right, I'll keep my eye out for that one. I'm I'm uh very curious for that. Would be awesome, America. This has been great. Refreat the time. I think a lot of really good insights here, especially on the licensing front. And yeah, really, really helpful. What's the best place for people to follow along with you specifically? And then what's the best place for people to follow along with uh the brand as well?

Speaker 1: 37:58
All our socials are at pickle in a pouch, so be that Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Um yeah, I mean to find our products, big, big shout out to Five Below. Uh anything you see something new, we have a we're we're looking to launch another licensed item in early 2026, and they should have they should have it first. I mean, they had Pringles first, they have Blue Raspberry first. So that's that's the way to see our innovation. But you know, this this brand was built on the the corner store of the independence, and and we still work on that too.

Speaker: 38:29
Perfect. Awesome, that's great. Awesome, Mary. Appreciate the time. I think that's the pod.

Speaker 1: 38:33
Okay, really appreciate it, Adam. Thank you.

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