Exiting One of the First Almond Butter Brands & Scaling CPG Brands in Today's Market | Jennifer Barney, Barney Butter

Speaker 1: 00:00
Today, we got the pleasure of speaking with Jennifer Barney, joining us from Turlock, California, heard of Almond Country. And back in 2006, Jennifer founded Barney Butter, one of the first brands to really bring almond butter into the mainstream before ultimately exiting in 2011. And these days, Jennifer's a consultant, an advisor to some of the most exciting brands in the CPG space, including HeroBread and Outhouse, just to name a few. Also an entrepreneur in residence at General Mills Venture Studio, director at Positively Good Snacks, which seems like a really cool organization, which I would encourage you to check out. Also a member of the Angel Group, which is a CPG investor group, which is where Jennifer and I met. And uh she's also got a really awesome substack called the Business of Food that I'd really highly highly recommend you check out, which is where a lot of my kind of questions came out of. Jennifer, the first question had just you live in a California Center Valley, which is like really in the heart of farm country. And a question that came to mind for me was you know, what might current and aspiring food and beverage entrepreneurs that that grew up in more like an urban or suburban environments who are probably more detached from where their inputs ultimately originate from? Like what might they might might they be missing? And, you know, how could they maybe be spent by spending more time closer to the source potentially help them be better entrepreneurs in this space?

Speaker: 01:16
Well, first of all, thank you, Adam, for having me. It's really a pleasure. And that's such a great question because, you know, I was one of those people. I grew up in the Bay Area. Um I didn't know really where my food came from exactly. I didn't really understand the impact that California had on like the whole world, but particularly our nation and and the foods that we that we eat. So um I became aware of like kind of the source of our food when I when I entered this industry, which happened quite by accident, I was making almond butter at home just for my family and my kids. And that was the background. I had no aspirations of, you know, building a business or having a big exit because 20 years ago that really wasn't a thing. So it's a completely different environment today. It's it's really hip and cool to have a food brand. But yeah, to your question, there are opportunities to source, you know, direct. And it's very much a people kind of network and business. So if you have a product that, you know, you've you're using raw ingredients that are, you know, derived from, you know, California and you're, you know, interested in trying to get, you know, uh access to a farmer processor, whether that be dairy, whether that be, you know, tree nuts, there's a lot of row crops here. But there's even shelf stable products that, you know, are derived from either IQF or sh or shelf stable, you know, powders that are derived from local crops. And um, you know, just just follow the stream of like where is the, you know, the transparency that everybody is aspiring to. If you just kind of linearly follow that, you can end up with like where is the source? I think a lot of startups obviously have limited ability to buy in in bulk and volume. But I'll tell you that a lot of pharma processors are very, very open to like allowing you to buy in small quantities. So I remember when I was first starting out. I mean, obviously I was, you know, local here to um to my source. So I could physically like drive over there, but I would drop the kids off at school and then I'd drive the suburban over to pick up at the at the way, like you'd have to like weigh in, like all the semi-trucks, you'd have to weigh in at the almond processor, and then you would go and you'd I'd just have them load the pallet in the back of the car. You know, I'd take the seat out and load the pallet in the back of the car, and then I'd weigh out and drive out. And it seems a little bit crazy. It it is unconventional, but it is possible. And there's a couple of benefits to doing that. It's not always just about price and like, you know, transparency and everything, but you develop a relationship with these people and you get a really good education about, you know, the particular specification of what you're buying because everything has like real complex like varietals. And same with like anything, even even in dairy, you know, the dairy components, it's not just what comes out of the cow. It can be, but and if that's your thing, that's really cool too, because then you can learn about the seasonality and like, you know, higher fat during the summer months and lower fat in other months. But there's just a lot of advantages to not only being able to message that way to your consumer, but also being able to have more of, I guess, a relationship for both like raw material security, but also just understanding the quality and the differentiation of the inputs of your products.

Speaker 1: 04:48
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I never really thought about potentially, like, you know, especially the early stage entrepreneurs when they're just starting out, if they actually will spend the time to go directly to the source, actually the farmer, they can probably get smaller quantities and you know, more competitive pricing that can work in some of those earlier stages, especially.

Speaker: 05:06
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 05:07
That's great. Uh well, yeah, so like shifting it gears a little bit, it it feels like almost like every week I see experience CPG operators, you know, sharing a similar message where kind of preaching, focus on velocity versus you know, getting as many distribution points as fast as possible, which I've seen you write about in your sub stack as well. So I'm kind of curious, you know, for for the up-and-coming, you know, and or first-time CPG operator, can you just help them kind of understand why they should focus on velocity versus expanding distribution points as fast as possible?

Speaker: 05:39
Yeah. Um I think it's a concept that people understand in stages. So I think the initial understanding is kind of like intuitive, like, oh yeah, like I, you know, it makes sense. I need to make sure that consumers really like it beyond just my circle of friends. So then that's the first level of understanding that, oh yeah, of course, like in order for it to move off the shelf, you know, if a consumer buys it, if they don't like it, they're not going to come back and buy it again. So that's like kind of, I would say, like the baseline, like first step of understanding that that brands have. But the next level of understanding comes with um how much cash do you have to actually now take that next step to go to a larger set of retailers, right? To you know, expand beyond you know your backyard. And it's not just the upfront cash of I can make it and then I can sell it. It's the cash conversion cycle of when you're gonna get paid back. And so I'll say there's a sub bullet in there, which is getting over that first six months with the distributor. So more than likely you're gonna go through a K here UNFI in order to get to the end retailer. And you know, they don't pay you until the second order. And so oftentimes it's not just 60 days or 90 days, it can be months, many months before you see that first check. And then in addition to that, you have gone in, it depends on the program that you choose to go in under, but there can be instances where you are substantially promoting in order to get the retailers to pick it up. And so therefore, there are a lot of deductions off of your invoice. And so then what you get back might be zero. So there's just a real practical understanding of do I have the cash to continue to supply my existing customers while I expand and don't get paid for a very long time. So I would say that's like the second level of understanding of understanding. But I would say that, you know, that can be modeled. And a lot of times brands do a superficial level of modeling that. So I think it's important to do like a week by week cash flow model, even though it's all kind of made up, right? Like you're you're creating a scenario that may not actually play out exactly X, Y, Z the way you've like, because you don't know when exactly they're going to order, right? They say they've taken you in and then you're sitting around waiting for the PO. But the the point of the exercise is to say, once these POs start to get filled and you ship, right? What are all the things that are going to happen throughout the touch points of from the distributor to the retailer from the backstock to the actual shelf? And then when the shelf tag is going to get put on. And initially there's usually an initial promo. So when is that TPR tag gonna get put on? And all of this is like a really crazy game of it's like project management. And so all of these things have to work out in a timing in a certain, in a certain, in a certain way. It's almost like a critical timeline. And before then you even trigger that, okay, they're gonna reorder and then get paid. So that second level of understanding is really about about the cash. But then the third thing that people sometimes need to come to understand that I wish they'd know ahead of time is just because your product tastes amazing, just because it completely is in a white space, just because you've done an excellent job of choosing a category that's ripe for disruption and your packaging is like plus plus, all of these things, right? The moving off the shelf is still totally about tactics and execution. So everything I said earlier about, okay, you've done the math to know, like I need however much in dollars so that I can get through this period of growth. Okay, you're still making the assumption that all of the things are gonna happen in terms of you're gonna get placement on the shelf where they said you would. The TPR is going to get on the way that you planned it to be. Your merchandising teams are actually going to go out the week that they said they were gonna go out. And all of these things are not automatic. Just because people say that they're gonna do it and they should, and I'm not saying there's bad people out there, and I'm not saying this is a crappy industry to be in. What I what I am saying is it takes a huge amount of resources to ensure the execution. And until the execution is perfect and you've really greased those wheels and dialed that in, your expansion plan may not like one thing goes wrong and then it all kind of falls apart. And then your whole plan of growth falls apart. So, where I want people to learn is incrementally starting with making sure your velocities are there. Because once you add extra layers of complexity, those executional priorities, you have to know how to handle them and how they're, you have to have the experience of having done it and managed through it before you move on to like the next geography and the next region and the next retailer.

Speaker 1: 11:16
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, kind of systematizing and making sure you're doing it right in the current distribution network before you expand that that that makes total sense. In terms of those tactics, you you kind of touched on a little bit, I think, you know, merchandising and and demos and how and how those really help drive velocity. Does most retailers make it pretty easy to secure that demo time as it helps move inventory off their shelves? Or does it sometimes take a fair amount of you know convincing and negotiating? And if so, for those ones where it's a bit more of a battle, what's the best way to get them on board to offer as much demo time as a brand can afford, at least?

Speaker: 11:50
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, and you're gonna hate the answer because the answer is it depends. Um, so let me just kind of paint a picture. If you start out with some independent retailers that you know, right? So they're in your hometown and you visit them regularly and you know the buyers, you have a relationship, you're much more likely to be able to get in and do demos. Now, once you start that that way, what's great is you learn like what works in a good how to do a good demo. And I'd strongly encourage people to do their own demos, at least at first, right? Before you then contract out to hire a demo team. That's so that's the first thing. The second thing I'll say is it gets harder, yeah, with the larger retailers. So yeah, I mean, it's it's usually part of your promotional program and you have to plan it well, well, well in advance to do a demo with like a sprouts or whatever. But yeah, they're highly effective. You want to instill confidence with your buyer that you're gonna pull it off because a lot goes into a demo that again goes back to earlier talking about like growing your retail footprint. Um, you have to make sure you have product on hand. And that's not easy when it's going through Kehy. So all of that pre-planning, it's really reliant on your relationship with your buyer or your broker's relationship with your buyer to make sure that everybody is on board with your plan and everybody is going to order ahead the proper amount of inventory and that the demo is actually going to take place. And once you instill that confidence, then it makes it so much easier for the second time around. So I would say the first time around of doing demos in a national retailer is always the hardest, but it's usually in conjunction with your entire promo plan for the whole year. You don't just like wake up one day and say, you know what? I think I'm gonna do some demos and just like fire off like a like a random email to your buyer and be like, hey, when when can I come in for some for some demo? It's not like that, right? We need to really be thoughtful about managing our retailer relationships so that you are low maintenance and you're and you're effective. And so obviously then it goes back to like if you're doing well as a brand, then they're gonna want to see more of you. They're gonna, they're gonna want you to invest, and and demos is really an investment.

Speaker 1: 14:08
Yeah. I'm build building on that related to you know demos and more like I guess like the merchandising side for in terms of end caps and other off-shelf display opportunities. How would you recommend brands approach retailers to give them the best chance that securing this kind of really valuable space like this?

Speaker: 14:27
Well, I mean, the friction is usually always cost. It's very expensive. You have to buy the space. So the friction isn't necessarily like Can you afford is the main function? I'm competing with somebody else for it. It's more like, you know, if you have the dough to do it, to do an end cap, I mean, by all means, you you should do it because a secondary placement is very effective.

Speaker 1: 14:50
Yeah.

Speaker: 14:52
So, you know, I it just goes back to being well funded.

Speaker 1: 14:56
Yeah.

Speaker: 14:57
But you don't always have to have like you know, I don't know. We could talk about funding and all of that later. There are ways to grow a business without having to raise a bunch of cash. You can be efficient and grow a little bit slower. And if you've got really, really good margins, there is a way to, you know, reinvest. But it's super, it's super hard to do, and you have to be so laser focused and so disciplined.

Speaker 1: 15:27
Yeah. On that front, actually, you know, all the things that you're saying, it's clearly takes a lot to just generate sustained success at retail, which I I imagine, you can correct me if I'm wrong, is probably part of the reason why it seems like the food service channel is becoming a a big focus for brands right now. And maybe that's just what I'm seeing, but it seemed like that is. And I imagine it's partly because there's not having to secure the demo, it's not having to secure that, you know, the expensive display space and what that's um. I'm curious, like from your point of view, what are the bows and cons of the food service channel? And maybe why we're so focused on it right now.

Speaker: 16:00
Yeah, no, the food service channel is super, super attractive for those reasons you avoid a lot of you know the costs of selling um because you don't have trade spend, um, you don't have to do, you know, consumer, you know, promotions, there's no couponing, all that stuff. And usually you get paid, you know, pretty, pretty quick. Um, but food service is a really tough one because not everything is like amenable to food service. Um, and I don't just mean like case pack and pack size, but it you it I guess it's similar to retail in that you have to have the end user want it. So it's not about just getting into a food service distributor and letting them sell it in. It's like, you know, if you want to sell into like, you know, the juice shop or whatever, you really have to sell them on your product and understand how they want it in the format. And then they need to, you kind of have to get something pre-made that's ready to go. And then they request it from the from the distributor, and then the distributor brings it in. And it and it can be in line with your current distributor relationships. So, for example, like dot foods will they sell food service packs to, you know, restaurants and so forth. And they can source from Kehi. So you can just add a SKU to Kahi, and then it can go through Dot and you can get started that way. So it's not like a completely different thing, it doesn't have to be like a completely different thing. You can also obviously people like it because you can go direct and there are, and there are specific food service, like everybody wants to get in like the food kitchen at Google specific, you know, food service distributors that are just for, you know, Silicon Valley, but it's obviously super, super competitive. So I don't know. Uh the food service channel is not like my area of super expertise, but I hear a lot of the stories that a lot of people hear, which is like you're like hiding out in the parking lot and you're waiting for that one moment for like somebody to open the door and then you like shove your granola bar in their face and you're like, put this in your lunchroom and you know, have somebody call me. And and sometimes you hear these stories work, you know. So I don't know whether to encourage kind of like this, you know, gorilla type like approach. Um, but but certainly, yes, I think that the reason why brands feel like food service is the way to go is because of um the seeming ease at which they can, you know, realize their their their net profits back, their net their net sales back, um, and retain a better margin. Um, the last thing I'll say is one way to test it is through FAIR. So I know that some restaurants or you know, um bakeries, um, you know, uh cafes will source from FAIR buckets of things or you know, large, large volume kind of boxes of uh of uh you know, loose food service boxes of uh of things. And that's a I think a fairly easy way to test if there's demand for your product in food service.

Speaker 1: 19:17
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think I actually saw someone post on LinkedIn or Twitter or something, how someone was making a comment how they said like one of the main uh mistakes that they see a lot of brands make on fairs that they're having their case packs or their MLQs are too big and you should have those MLQs, those case pack sizes much smaller, and it's a it's a chance for the for to really test that demand and see if it, you know, where the demand is, which sounds like you're saying a similar thing.

Speaker: 19:43
Exactly.

Speaker 1: 19:44
Yep, that makes total sense. Well should yeah, shifting gears a little bit in in um in your sub stack, you recently highlighted a LinkedIn post that that I found really interesting too, that was written by Fred Hart on how to approach a brand refresh or packaging design. And he touched on this concept called the Trojan horse positioning. So I'm just kind of curious, just first, Joth, like why did this post resonate with you so much?

Speaker: 20:07
Yeah, I love Fred Hart. Um, he is he's he's an amazing um brand strategist and designer. Yeah, I I reposted a LinkedIn post that he he had talking about this concept of a Trojan horse positioning. And I I'd never really heard of it that way, but it made so much sense to me because a lot of times brands will think about their packaging label as like, I need to really show off my differentiation on pack to the consumer. And yeah, that makes sense. But the concept of Trojan horse is to go in and leading with what matters most to the consumer, not necessarily what makes your product unique. So, you know, an example oftentimes is like a sustainability claim. Like that might be the thing that makes your product different, but it's typically not why consumers the number one reason why consumers buy you. So obviously everybody wants something that's tasty. So, you know, it goes without saying that the package needs to signal that the product is super delicious, right? So don't compromise on, you know, clearly identifying what your product is. There has to be no confusion about that. And then, you know, highlighting number one, like what it is that it makes it, you know, if it's if it's the flavor that makes it that signals that it's so tasty, then that's gonna trump. So when you think about hierarchy on pack, there always is a hierarchy. I think it's hard sometimes when you're rebranding to like people will just say, like, I want this a more modern feel, or I want it to be more, you know, and it is the job of the designer to really bring that to life, whatever it is that you're that you're that you're wanting. And they don't want you to tell them, like, make this bigger and make this smaller and make it blue instead of green. However, when you say, I need it to signal, you know, whatever the differentiator is, that Might not necessarily be the number one prominent hierarchy placement on pack because of that Trojan horse. You want to come in with what there is the highest need. And then you kind of are like secretly saying, and also kind of like the reason to believe. So we are delicious and we are cheddar cheese. And then the sustainability claim or the high protein claim or the gluten-free claim or whatever it is, that's the reason to believe this thing is now differentiated.

Speaker 1: 22:32
Yeah, I can see why it resonated with you. Um building on that a little bit, if I feel like I can't, I came to you and I had a better for you brand. And I told you I was considering, you know, packaging design refresh. What questions might you ask me that would help me like confirm if this is the right strategy? Because I don't think it always is the right strategy. I think some people feel like it's, you know, a sales maybe getting challenged or something along those lines, and they maybe feel like a packaging refresh is the solution. But yeah, I'm kind of curious what questions you would ask me to help me confirm if that is the right strategy.

Speaker: 23:03
Yeah, that's such a great. So you're actually touching on something I think is really important. And that is that as a consultant and advisor to brands, one of the things that I think is a really important for me to do is to help brands create really good creative briefs for their service providers. And this is not an easy thing. A lot of brands don't do it because they don't, they think like, I know how to talk to my person. Like I know, I know, I know what I need, you know, but it's so much more effective and it can be a lot less expensive when you come to a design team or you know, somebody like yourself that's taking an existing, you know, set of assets and and having to just like implement a certain change. It's so much more effective when you're given a very clear mandate of what it is that the packaging is not doing and what it is that you want it to be doing. And so you don't have to be, in fact, it's better if you're not a designer yourself, unless you're gonna do it yourself. But because that sometimes muddies the waters a little bit, it's better to like just express what it is that you're trying to accomplish. So I always ask the question, what is it not doing for you? What it, what, what do you want it to do?

Speaker 1: 24:23
Yeah.

Speaker: 24:24
And it and it could be, you know, um, we have learned that our consumer target, we thought it was this certain kind of psychographic or demographic. And then what we've learned over time by analyzing our meta audience or just literally standing in the store and just like spying on people that are buying my product off the shelf, like we've learned it's actually this other audience. And so we feel like we're not connecting with our audience. We want to better connect to this type of person. It can be, it can just be that.

Speaker 1: 24:58
How do you kind of balance the need for, you know, a fresh look, which is obviously one of the reasons why I assume brands are approaching like a packaging refresh with also the importance of like keeping the familiar and like legacy brand elements for existing customers that really resonates with those existing customers and what they know and love to a certain extent?

Speaker: 25:16
Yeah. Okay, so I'm gonna say something a little unconventional. So I think that a lot of times emerging brands, startups and emerging brands, they they they overestimate what their customers recall about their brand. They overestimate unaided awareness. So that is good news. If you if you come to accept that, that is very freeing because then it allows for you don't have to hang on too closely to some of those design elements, right? The more mature you are as a brand. So when I was working in my big CPG job and I was running innovation for a big frozen food company, we were going through a a brand refresh. Okay. And this is a company that was over 50 years old already. And the the amount of time and the amount of trepidation over where the shadow was going to cast on the teeny tiniest little corner of the logo that had like a little like, you know, it it was like a it was like the shape of like a like a window. Okay. I mean, we were deathly afraid to do anything. And I when I say we, I mean the brand team. I I wasn't on the team, but it deathly afraid to do anything because, oh my God, good lord, should someone not recognize that it's it's the brand, right? So unless you're like a super legacy brand and you have a lot that you have to preserve, I I think that again, just going back to what is working or not working. I mean, if it's just a matter of like, you don't like it or it doesn't pop, it's not resonating with my consumer, you know, all those sorts of things, I feel much more bullish about it's okay to change because more than likely your consumer is not gonna even like notice. I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean like they're not gonna suddenly not not find you.

Speaker 1: 27:30
When you think about some of the most cited or like, you know, game-changing packaging refreshes and talking about, you know, the ones that came to mind, like, you know, Rx bar, Celsius, Oli, compared to maybe the ones that fell flat. I'm curious what why you might think that some work and some didn't. If you know, you correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like all three of those, they made a pretty significant change. And that's what kind of what maybe was the big impact. But I'm curious what you thought.

Speaker: 27:55
Okay, well, Adam, you're giving me way too much credit that I can analyze those three brand refreshes and tell you why they worked. Like, I don't know. I mean, I think, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, here's what I'll say. I think possibly, I mean, we don't have these up to show a side-by-side before and after, but I'm I'm gonna take a stab that I think that possibly it's about it's about taking things away. So sometimes when you are more reductive, you are better. And it allows for more space for the things that are important. So remember, I talked about the hierarchy of communication. Sometimes people have like six, seven, eight, 10, 12 things that they want to say on the front of the pack. And it ends up getting lost like nothing is being said well. So when you just reduce to, I mean, our X bar, everybody says, like, you know, they were the first ones that did like the ingredient list on the front of the pack, you know, and that was their big like thing that we all can all point to as really revolutionary, that many people have emulated. You know, I I don't know what it was before, but I'm gonna guess that maybe they were saying other things too. And they just said, you know what? This is all we're about. So it's the br it's the logo and it's the three or five, four or five ingredients, and that's it. Other than that, it's the net weight because you have to have it for FDA.

Speaker 1: 29:12
Yeah, that's that's actually funny. You hear you said that because my my next question was gonna be related to like putting ingredients on the front. I don't know if you've seen the you know, something coming out about the FDA is saying they were seriously considering terrible, terrible idea. Nutritional panels on the front. Like what do you okay? I was gonna ask, what do you think about this? You're clearly you're not on board with it.

Speaker: 29:29
Not a fan. You know what? It's because here's the thing. I'm not a fan because I'm not a fan of putting more regulation on small business. We are already regulated to the hilt. Okay. And so now you're gonna require us to not only have a full nutritional ingredient panel on the back, but you're gonna require us to have a regulated, and it's gonna be ugly. And is this gonna make people eat better? Like if somebody wants a treat, you know, like they want a donut or they want an Oreo cookie or they want a super delicious, you know, cookie or whatever, putting that it's got X amount of sugar or fat or whatever on the front, I don't think, I don't think that anybody's walking around thinking that an Oreo cookie is really healthy. So putting that on the front, because that's the rationale, right? The FDA's rationale is that we have an obesity problem in the United States because consumers do not know. They're not aware. They think that the FDA feels like if they made a more simplified and more visible nutritional on the front of packaging, that all of a sudden America is going to be like, oh my God, I had no idea. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna buy that. Right. And and I don't think that that's the case.

unknown: 30:43
Yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:44
In in the case that unfortunately, if it this does become a reality, how any like thoughts how brands can prepare for this change and maybe ways they can use this maybe unfortunate opportunity to like to differentiate themselves themselves in some way or another?

Speaker: 30:58
I mean, you know, there's gonna be it it uh there's gonna be like how big it can be, and and you know, it has to be this much removed from any other letter on the pattern. There's gonna be rules about how you can put it. So I mean, if it goes through, then you we have to comply. And yeah, certainly, you know, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. So I mean, like if you are a better for you, you know, brand, then you know, it it may be helpful that, you know, your stats are really good. But in in general, I just think that it's pretty clear in today's market, the grocery industry, the food industry, it's pretty clear what foods are like junk food and what foods are better for you, healthy, conscious, minded foods.

Speaker 1: 31:54
Right.

Speaker: 31:54
We have so many ways of signaling that now, today. And we don't need an extra label on the front to tell us that.

Speaker 1: 32:06
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think that's a really good point. I I want to circle back to one thing you brought up earlier, which I feel like you can definitely speak to, especially in this environment in terms of, you know, going the fundraising route versus going the bootstrapping route. I think, you know, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think generally a lot of, you know, especially in the earlier stage CPG entrepreneurs would say the fundraising environment is is pretty challenging right now. So for ones that are feeling like, eh, maybe that's not the right route I want to go, I would just want to try to bootstrap this and get this as far as I can. What kind of, you know, how would you suggest brands a brands approach that to give them the best chance of success?

Speaker: 32:41
Yeah, great question. I mean, number one, just be very realistic about what your costs are and be very realistic about the cost of doing business so that you have healthy margins. And most brands that are able to succeed doing that, starting really small and being able to do, you know, really small runs and it are are brands that are premium. They're they're they're premium positioned and therefore then premium priced. And so it it it stands to reason that those are the brands that end up disrupting categories. So I'll give you a great example, Heyday Canning Company, they're a beans, they're canned beans company. You know, I think it's four dollars and fifty cents to five dollars a, you know, for a can of beans. Well, you can get a can of beans for 69 cents, you know, or or a dollar ninety-nine. I don't know what they I don't really know what it is. You know, when when's the last time you went down the canned bean aisle and you were like, I really need to be careful with the prices here? Yeah, right. But however, this is a this is a product that is absolutely genius because okay, we could talk about you know disrupting sleepy categories and you know, beans, whatever. But what I just said, this is this is a premium product because this is a meal. I can now shop for a meal in the can. When do you go through and buy canned beans and say, I this is my meal? No, this is an ingredient. Now I have to do something with this. I have to open up this can and now I have to season it and I have to add it to this and that or whatever. So when you have the ability to be that much more expensive because you're offering the consumer a solution that they don't currently have, particularly in that format for that occasion, then if the numbers work out the way that they should, you now potentially have the luxury of growing sustainably to where you don't have to necessarily raise raise a ton of money.

Speaker 1: 34:43
Yeah. I mean, that that definitely makes sense. You probably agree some of the best learnings come from experiences come from the times where things didn't go as expected exactly. I'm I'm curious, anything that really jumps out in your career in terms of like whether it's you know a strategy or initiative that you worked on that didn't necessarily work or go as planned. And like looking back, is there anything you you would have done differently that really jumps out?

Speaker: 35:03
Oh my gosh. I mean, we could just talk for like another hour about all the mistakes and the things that I wish had gone differently, decisions that I made that weren't were not great. But you see, all of my clients are the beneficiaries of all my mistakes. I don't know how to pinpoint it into one thing, but but one thing that does come to mind is this was not this was not with my personal brand, but just what recently I have been battling with some of my clients is being really effective on Amazon. So there's definitely like so many great ways to be visible on Amazon, right? Um and you set yourself up for success on Amazon, but just thinking like I can just program these ads and it's gonna, it's gonna like my that my ads are actually gonna activate, it's really kind of hard to do. So I think one some things that don't work are and are frustrating are when you know you've planned for certain amount of sales to happen because you've done everything that you think you need to do to be effective in a certain channel. And we've talked a lot about retail and all of the pitfalls of that, but I want to talk about e-commerce a little bit because it feels more like you're in control. And so the lessons there are, you know, I I think Amazon is its own special channel. And, you know, unless you have the time and ability to manage every aspect of it yourself, like it's so worth it to hire somebody to help you because there's the operational side of Amazon that if you don't get that right, then what happens is you're out of stock a lot. And then all of the ads and everything, and I'm just talking about this now, Adam, because like I've been going through it with some brands is you know, things that don't work, like the best laid plans, but they don't work because you suddenly are deactivated or flagged for this or that, or you know, the heavy, heavy ad spending that you think is going to be effective, it isn't effective and it's very frustrating. So kind of peeling back the onion and fixing everything, it really starts with, you know, adhering to those strict inventory performance metrics, the the requirements that they have, and just being like having somebody on top of it I'm and I'm talking about on a daily basis.

Speaker 1: 37:26
Yeah, yeah, you're not the first person to tell me, tell me that Amazon is its own beast for sure. Any like trends that you saw your member now coming across that you wish you would have jumped on?

Speaker: 37:35
Yes. I have been tempted to get back in myself a number of times. So I will say something that I think is a bit of a slow cooker, but is going to take off is A2 milk and A2 dairy products. So I had this idea well before I don't know that that very many people knew what A2 milk was. So for those that don't know, A2 is a type of beta, casein, protein, and milk. So you have casein and you have whey. Those are the two types of protein and milk. And a lot of people think like, oh, I'm just lactose intolerant, so I have to go plant-based. And a lot of times, really, what it is is they're they're A2, A, A, A1 intolerant. So there's two kinds of casein proteins, one is A1 and one is A2. And I'm probably saying casein wrong. It's probably casein or something. I don't really know how to pronounce it. But anyway, being from California, being in dairy, and my husband is a CFO of an agricultural operation. They have dairies, dairy farms, and a lot of the herds now are A2, but it's just now becoming like an ingredient that is available. So Alex ice cream, for example, they're an A2 ice cream. So it's really about digestibility of the dairy and Laurel's coffee, which is an amazing ready-to-drink latte. And the reason why I know this and how I learned about A2 is because my daughter, when she was at Cal Poly, you know, she's already like an adult, she suddenly developed a food allergy and we couldn't figure out what it was. And I was like, this is strange because none of us in our family have food allergies. So we went and got her tested and they said she was, you know, allergic to dairy. And I've kind of scratched my head and said, Well, that is so strange because you've not been allergic to dairy this whole time. Why, as a 19 or 20-year-old, are you allergic to dairy? So I dug into it a little bit more, and that's how I learned that actually she was allergic to A1 casein. And so she's able to have A2 type of dairy. So that is something I think is on the horizon if people don't know about pretty much lactose-free milk has taken share of dairy milk. Um, and we've seen that growth in it through in fluid dairy. With fluid dairy, there is an actual branded A2 milk that has kind of surged and resurged a little bit in terms of California or the US, but it's a New Zealand company. But I think, you know, where there's a lot of growth in dairy are in the value added products such as cottage cheese, ice cream, and yogurt. And so when we start to see this differentiation in the type of dairy, I think that that is an exciting, I guess, trend that, you know, I was passionate about and I I probably missed um because I didn't jump in, but I I am like 100% behind these brands that are doing it. I I think it's super brave and I think it's bold, and and I I do think that there's gonna be its own segment, just like lactose free is a segment.

Speaker 1: 40:34
Maybe it's not too late, but well, yeah. Anyway, Jennifer, this has been great. I really appreciate the time. I think uh this was really valuable. Maybe just remind everyone where they can find your Substack and anywhere else where it makes sense to follow along with you.

Speaker: 40:48
Yeah. Um the business of food, it's on Substack. I publish newsletters and it's all about tips and insights for not just CPG founders, but also ag producers, because I I am very close to to agriculture here in the Central Valley of California.

Speaker 1: 41:04
Awesome. Well, uh Jennifer, appreciate the time and this has been awesome. And um, yeah, hope you have a good rest of your day.

Speaker: 41:09
Thanks, Adam.

Speaker 1: 41:10
All righty.

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